I understand that Israel feels itself under a threat, but still it seems to be that there are red lines here and Israel has crossed one.
Rob: Well I wrote a piece yesterday about FLAME, a propaganda organization for Israel, are you familiar with them?
Mark: I've heard of them, yes.
Rob: They put out a piece yesterday advocating and supporting the use of murder of physicists in Iran, that this was something that Israel had to do. To me, that was so far beyond anything that could be considered appropriate my any legitimate nation. It was amazing that they actually took that position.
Mark: I agree. I am astonished actually at some of the things that people say about Iran, as if, people say well we ought to attack Iran as if there is no price to pay for this, as if it's automatic that we would succeed or Israel would succeed, that the world would not be plunged into a long term mutual war. I'm with you on this, I think some of these things, some of these statements strike me as very irresponsible, very inflammatory, very dangerous, people should take counsel of their fears in this case. A war in the Middle East with Iran is just not a good idea; it would be astonishingly bad for our economy, which is already on the ropes. I hear these statements from time to time like the one you pointed out and I'm puzzled at how, at why people think these are good things to say. They're very, very inflammatory.
Rob: You have some pretty strong opinions about Israel. In an interview that you did with Scott Horton, you talked about the characterization or the use is the word of "the Jews" by people who oppose Israel and conflating Jews and Israeli's and also on the other side, the distinction between the other side which was..
Mark: It seems to me..
Rob: Can you talk about that?
Mark: Yea, it seems to me that we have to be careful of the use of language, having been a reporter for 30 years I suppose that it's natural to assume that I'm very sensitive about the use of language. But in the use of Israel, I'm particularly sensitive. It's common here in the United States to talk about Jewish settlements on the West Bank. They're not Jewish settlements, they're Israeli settlements, this has nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Israel. And even with Palestine's they say well the Jews this, the Jews that. I go, listen you're not talking about my fellow citizens in the Untied States who happen to be Jewish, you're talking about Israelis, yes. And they say well yeah. I say well don't say the Jews this and the Jews that, say the Israeli's.
Rob: It kind of reminds me of the Frank Luntz, the language expert for the Republican party. He creates languaging-- words like "the death tax," and he actually gets his opponents to use that language which the use of that language helps the other side.
Mark: Well this is exactly right and we have to be careful of this, of "Palestinians are killing the Jews." No, they're at war with Israel, not the Jews. And so I reject the use of language, I attempt to correct it every time at every moment that I can, I don't think we should conflate Judaism for what's happening in Israel. Certainly there are a large number of American Jews here in the United States who are very critical of Israel and they find this kind of language very disturbing.
Rob: Absolutely. I'm affiliated with a synagogue; I say 98% of the people support treating Palestinians much differently than they are. I just want to conclude, from what I'm hearing from you, when people who support the Palestinians and oppose the way Israel acts, talk about Jewish settlements where the Jewish state, they are really helping Israel and that messaging.
Mark: They are and it's uncomfortable for the rest of us that are not Jewish to be seen as condemning Jews. Frankly, I'm not condemning Jews, I've been a defender of Israel, Israel has the right to exists, they are a strong strategic ally of ours, I don't have any problem with that. My problem is when Israel crosses the line and endangers Americans. My loyalty is to the United States of America and it's principals and I find it extremely uncomfortable to be accused by Israeli's of being anti-Jewish when I'm anti some Israel policies. Making those distinctions is sometimes difficult to do but I think Americans have to make those distinctions and not get caught up in language that seems to blame, that is basically anti-Semitic, that blames Jews for the problems in the Middle East, that's just not the case. We need to be adults about this, Israel is another country and it has a foreign policy and sometimes it diverges from ours and we should expect that and still be able to maintain our friendship with the state of Israel.
Rob: Now we don't have that much time left so I want to just get to your book. Your book Talking To Terrorists -- what's that about? Tell us a little bit about the book and what you bring to the table that we can learn from you about.
Mark: Well I spent 2005 and 2006 talking to Hamas, the leaders of the Islamic Resistance movement and Hezbollah, the party of Goan and I suppose talking to them is the wrong thing to say, listening to them and trying to understand their point of view. Now these aren't ballet school attendees These are hard-nosed political operators, but I found their point of view fascinating and I thought Americans ought to be informed of it.
In saying that, the first part of the book is really about what happened in Anbar Province in Iraq that led to the awakening in Iraq and that turned our war in Iraq around. It's straight reporting and it's people who we used to call terrorists one day and the next day we called them insurgents because we were able to turn them against Al-Kaida so this is the general tenor of the book. I think that Irwin would find it interesting, it was a great enjoyment to write and I hope it's educational.
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