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December 12, 2007 at 11:54:52

Are Americans Really "Better Than That?"

by Ray McGovern     Page 2 of 3 page(s)

www.opednews.com

 

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Senator Dick Durbin of the Senate Intelligence Committee has complained that he was aware that classified information did not justify the conclusion in 2002 that Iraq had unconventional weapons, but he could not say anything because it was classified!  Durbin explained:

...We’re duty-bound once we enter that room to respect classified information. Everything you hear is supposed to stay in the room...I certainly had enough to know that the statements that were made about mushroom clouds were not the conclusions of someone in the administration who was really being honest about the full debate. But you really know, walking in the room, what the rules of the game will be.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration's eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when Bush and Cheney took office. One key unanswered question is this: Was she told that within days of their taking office—that is, seven months before 9/11, the National Security Agency's electronic vacuum cleaner had already begun to suck up information on Americans—the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the Constitution, be damned?


In a
Washington Post op-ed of Jan. 15, 2006, Pelosi proudly advertised her uniquely long tenure on the Intelligence Committee and acknowledged that she was one of the privileged handful of lawmakers who were briefed.  "This is how I came to be informed of President Bush's authorization for the NSA to conduct certain types of surveillance." She then proceeded to demonstrate the bowing and scraping characteristic of her subservient attitude toward the Executive Branch:

"But when the administration notifies Congress in this manner, it is not seeking approval. There is a clear expectation that the information will be shared by no one, including other members of the intelligence committees. As a result, only a few members of Congress were aware of the president's surveillance program, and they were constrained from discussing it more widely."

And so too, may we assume, with respect to torture?  This is oversight?

Neutered Watchdogs: Rockefeller and Reyes

What can we expect from the current Senate and House oversight chairmen regarding the recently disclosed, deliberate destruction of two tapes of harsh interrogations of Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri?  (Al-Nashiri is thought to have played a role in the attack on the USS Cole.)  On the Senate side, expect nothing of Mr. Milquetoast Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee,  who, it is said, is so afraid of his own shadow that he only ventures outdoors at night or in bad weather.

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes has a different kind of problem, and should recuse himself.  He has been fawning all over José Rodriguez, the former CIA Deputy Director of Operations who ordered the tapes destroyed.

On August 16, 2007 Congressman Reyes told a conference in El Paso he considered Rodriguez “an American hero,” proudly adding that, “with a few liberties that Hollywood takes, the exploits of José Rodriguez are documented in the FOX TV series “24.”  I am told that almost every episode of “24” includes at least one scene glorifying torture, usually with lead man Jack Bauer playing a main role.  Reyes made it clear he is a big fan of Bauer and “24.”

Were that not enough, after Rodriguez’ role in destroying the interrogation tapes became public, Reyes immediately cautioned against allowing investigations to find just one “scapegoat” (no secret to whom he was referring).  And so, unless Reyes does recuse himself, look for a “complete and thorough” investigation of the kind favored by the Nixon White House.  (Just when you may have thought it could not get any worse!)

Torture as Technique: Stark Differences in View

On Sept. 6, 2006, the very day Bush bragged about his “alternative set of procedures for interrogation” and appealed for legislation allowing the C.I.A. to continue using them, the head of Army intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, took a very different tack.  Conducting a Pentagon briefing shortly before the president gave his own speech, Kimmons underscored the fact that the revised Army manual for interrogation is in sync with the Geneva treaties.  Then, conceding past “transgressions and mistakes,” Kimmons updated something I learned 45 years ago as a second lieutenant in Army intelligence:

“No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.”

Grabbing the headlines the following day, was Bush’s admission that the CIA has taken “high-value” captives to prisons abroad for interrogation using “tough” techniques prohibited by the revised Army field manual—and by Geneva, for that matter.  Gen. Kimmons displayed uncommon courage in facing into that wind.

How About— Stop Torture Because It’s Wrong?

Have you noticed the shameful silence of our institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques?  True, on occasion a professor of moral theology will speak out.  Professor William Schweiker of the Chicago Divinity School, for example, has heaped scorn on the scenario of the lone knower of the facts whose torture is thought to be able to save millions of lives.  He notes that such is “the stuff of bad spy movies and bad exam questions in ethics courses.”  Schweiker warns Christians, in particular:

“Not to fall prey to fear and questionable reasoning and this continue to support an unjust and vile practice that demeans the nation’s highest political and moral ideals, even as it desecrates one of the most important practices and symbols (Baptism) of the Christian faith.”

And, to its credit, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, a coalition of 130 religious organizations from left to right on the political spectrum, yesterday issued a strong call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate the C.I.A.’s destruction of the videotapes of harsh interrogation techniques.  NRCAT’s founder, Princeton Theological Seminary professor George Hunsinger told the press that “to acknowledge that waterboarding is torture is like conceding that the sun rises in the east,” adding:

"All the dissembling in high places that makes these shocking abuses possible must be brought to an end. But they will undoubtedly continue unless those responsible for them are held accountable. Clearly a joint probe by the Justice Department and the CIA -- agencies that are both seriously compromised -- is not enough. A special counsel is an essential first step.”

But where are the official voices of the institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques in this country.  In effect, they are ordaining Jack Bauer with their silence.

 1  |  2  |  3

 

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. During his 27-years as a CIA analyst, he chaired NIEs: he is now on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

 

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8 comments

A writer is a rogue goose. All other gees fly in a flock formation; every goose knows his place and time for honking. The rogue goose is undisciplined. He leaves the formation indiscriminately to have a look at it from aside. He roams back and forth, takes a peep at the leader, honks a little bit from behind, distracts everyone and writes on what he sees. Time passes and as he wants to return back to his place he discovers someone else there. Thus he either has to wait until they land for rest...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Mark SashineA writer is a rogue goose. All other gees fly in a flock formation; every goose knows his place and time for honking. The rogue goose is undisciplined. He leaves the formation indiscriminately to have a look at it from aside. He roams back and forth, takes a peep at the leader, honks a little bit from behind, distracts everyone and writes on what he sees. Time passes and as he wants to return back to his place he discovers someone else there. Thus he either has to wait until they land for rest...

to see more of bio, click on member name

I repeat here my sermon on Torture from 11/2005-again!

The topic of torture is back on the first page considering the CIA secret places in Eastern Europe. As usual all sides have that in common that all of them exhibit a genuine surprise as if they never knew about what CIA was ever doing. As if we all thought until today that CIA consists of Jack Ryans, degree et al. As if we never knew of Chile and the Dignidad colony. As if we never knew about other nice deeds of the CIA people in Guatemala, for instance. No, Sir. We have just found out that they are professional torturers and by God, here comes the split: the liberals are appalled by the fact itself and the so- called conservatives are appalled by.. the fact that it was revealed. Go figure who is more insane. I guess the former are deliberately stupid and insane and the latter are evil and insane. What a choice!

::::::::

One of the most insane statements I have read recently was a liberal argument that “ ..Torture does not work. We don’t get needed info ..”. Mea Culpa, in the Y2003 I myself used that argument because… I thought we were rational people and have just gone astray. But by today I know better. So, here is a question; What if it did work? Then the liberals would say OK, let’s go for it?
I have news for you, folks. Torture does work. It does exactly what it is designed for- it makes people inhuman. All people but the victim. That is what the torture is for. No other purpose is sought. By the Providence of God torture of the human being for whatever reason is an inhuman act and that’s how God distinguishes between the humans and ..others. Thus here is something else for you all, my darlings:

The definition of torture is simple- it is inflicting on the other what you don’t want to be inflicted on thyself unless you are a psychopathic masochist (those do not qualify as torturers, they are just sick). As such:

· Anyone who does torture directly is evil and has to be destroyed.
· Anyone who willfully orders torture is evil and has to be destroyed.
· Anyone who sees torture and does not stop it even by killing the torturer is not human anymore.
· Anyone who helps to perform torture professionally (doctors, lawyers, technical personnel) have lost their humanity and are to be put into tar and feathers.
· Anyone who justifies torture by any argument whatsoever is sick and has to be committed to the mental hospital.
· Anyone who considers torture as a possible part of the police or any other interrogation is subhuman and cannot be trusted with any job or entrusted to become a parent.
· Anyone who promotes torture or pain on the human being for money is a rabid dog and has to be treated as such.
· Anyone who ‘discusses’ torture in any way other than absolutely negative statement is a damned demagogue and will burn in Hell with the shoe in his mouth.
· Any member of the Christian denomination who does not curse the torturers in his prayers every day is not a real Christian and has to be excommunicated.
· Any parent who does not tell his children that torturing people is out of the question under any circumstance has to be stripped of the parental rights.
· Any person who pretends to be deliberately naïve and performs torture when given direct orders is a damned fool because those people are witnesses and are the first target for elimination.
· And last but not least: Any nation which openly discusses torture from the position whether that thing is “useful or not, works or not, helps or not” is not a nation but a mob. And the mob does not deserve a democracy.

There is no excuse for torture. No discussion, no limits, no small, no big, no plus, no minus, no pro, no con. Joking about torture is evil. Listening to the discussion of torture is evil because there is nothing to discuss. Considering it as an option is evil. A person can kill another human being and still remain human. But torturers become inhuman as soon as they do it once and there is no way back. Torture is a Devil's invention and everyone who somehow touches it becomes a Devil's brood. End of the story.

When I wrote my first essay on torture in the Y2003 some people said that I was too angry. Damn right I am. I don't like the Devil's brood. And I especially don't like people who knowingly embrace the Devil while pretending that they do not know what the Hell are they doing. That's a spiritual stupidity of the worst kind.
Shame on you, people. How can you? How can you be so stupid?

PS. There is a persistent statement in the media that ' if someone planted a nuclear device and a person in custody knows where it is you can torture this person because of the circumstances' I am not even discussing this kind of lunacy. ' If someone planted and you know..."If you know all that- just go find it. Now, how do you know a person in custody has the info? He told you? He is willing to die? All of that is not relevant. Such situations happened many times and the real humans know how to deal with them: you put the person responsible in the same situation as the victims. That means you ask a question about a whereabouts of the device. Then, if a person refuses to answer you calmly tell this person that after the blast occurs you will execute him/her. That is that simple. If the nuclear blast takes place the real, normal life on this planet is off anyway. So you will exercise justice if you are a real human being. That is all. But you will remain a human until the end.

 

 

by Mark Sashine (46 articles, 19 quicklinks, 234 diaries, 3343 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 1:08:12 PM
 


Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee.
Mr MCurrently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee.

Concur ...

I'm still flabbergasted. When the word "torture" first reared it's ugly head I couldn't even believe it was being discussed, let alone practiced and preached as a "necessary evil" openly, as though it were something we kept on the shelf and used on rare occasions. NOOOOO - never, it shouldn't even be in the house. Not even considered, not even thought. I simply don't understand why anyone can miss the point that one does not defeat the beast by becoming the beast.

Now, not being naive, one knows that in the dark corridors there are those, when left to their own devices with no oversight, will torture. Spend a week in any of our penal institutions and you'll find that out in short order. In every war and conflict, the throwing of prisoners from helicopters in Vietnam is well documented, torture can be found in isolated or not so isolated instances. None of this makes torture right. In a just world the inflicter would feel the pain of the inflicted times two.

But we don't live in a just world, not even a just country, not anymore, if it ever was one. But that doesn't negate us from suspending our conscience or getting away from the reality that we must at all times be vigilant and seek to root out the evil that lurks within ourselves and society. If we stop that, we're doomed to continue down the path of ruin.

And it seems we've already passed that gate. What we are witnessing now are politicians who unwittingly and/or knowingly did not blink when made aware long ago that the beast was loose and did nothing to stop it. So each is looking to the other for an answer as to how they can best cover their asses rather than take the punishment they so richly deserve. Some have gone as far as to say that a practice that has been defined as torture for centuries, really isn't torture, but akin to swimming backwards in a swimming pool. I weep for this country.

 

by Mr M (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 1167 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 2:03:15 PM
 


I am a Musician, political Junkie, Father, Husband, who cares very much about the United States of America and what is being done to the Ideals and citizens of this great Nation.

I want to restore the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to what the founders of this nation intended to protect us from.

I was born in Niagara Falls, N.Y. and I now reside in Florida. I am tired of the media being manipulated by Faux News and right wing propaganda that leading our Democracy i...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Michael ChaversI am a Musician, political Junkie, Father, Husband, who cares very much about the United States of America and what is being done to the Ideals and citizens of this great Nation.

I want to restore the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to what the founders of this nation intended to protect us from.

I was born in Niagara Falls, N.Y. and I now reside in Florida. I am tired of the media being manipulated by Faux News and right wing propaganda that leading our Democracy i...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Get involved and stand for a righteous America again.

Torture is just plan wrong.  The only problem is America is becoming morally bankrupt.  We have violent programming on just about all the TV channels.  Teenagers play video games that are almost lifelike killing and maiming other humans. 

Movies like Hostel and Saw are desensitizing and getting our teens to accept that type of violence. 

What is the answer?  We must as parents teach and guide our children toward righteousness instead of watching too much TV do something as a family.   Get involved and stand for a righteous America again.

by Michael Chavers (42 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 172 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 4:07:00 PM
 


Aerospace Engineer.
Electrical Engineer.
BS. MS. CNE.

Thomas ChristianAerospace Engineer.
Electrical Engineer.
BS. MS. CNE.

I know Ray's feeling of outrage.

This comment has been flagged and is awaiting review by the editors -
Reason: Inappropriate Content

I know Ray's feeling of outrage.

I kind of felt that way when his CIA bitch colleague Valerie Plame

was violating my privacy after I applied for a job at CIA.

I felt it again when his crooked lying  scumbag friend Larry Johnson was launching a smear campaign against me.

by Thomas Christian (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 7:10:00 PM
 


Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee.
Mr MCurrently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee.

I have only one question ...

Why would they bother? Why would they spend all those man-hours and resources on you? The fact that you were the one that contacted them for a job, I don't find it suspicious that they would do some covert investigation on anyone requesting to work within the Agency, after all they are a "spy" agency, but to send all these different agents to all these different places to - do what? - check-up on one potential employee?

Look, don't get me wrong. I'm been an activist in one form or the other most my life. Helped start one of the first environmental research institutes and knew back then that we had to do screening of potential "plants". Rooting out agitators posing as peaceful demonstrators was also part of what we watched out for. You start to organize anything in this country that even looks like it might have political fallout and you can pretty much be assured someone from one of the agencies is going to investigate you and/or infiltrate the group. I have no doubt they have agents that monitor these sites. I think they'd be remiss if they didn't. I'm not condoning it, I'm just saying they most likely are. Indeed some of the methods the authorities would use were comical in their obviousness, but to the extent that one person would draw so much attention just for applying for a job?

I have no doubt that you received some scrutiny by apply for a job in a spy agency, but to have half a dozen agents following you around seems a little over the top.

by Mr M (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 8 diaries, 1167 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 11:54:20 AM
 


x
Tony Forestx

good reading

no, not that.....

this !

by Tony Forest (4 articles, 12 quicklinks, 127 diaries, 1142 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 6:38:02 AM
 


My name it means nothing, my age it means less. My deeds of activism are mine to enjoy and share as I feel necesary, not as some clown in a small forum's administration thinks I must..This place gets worse each and every visit.
Member banned on June 3, 2008 for repeated abuse of editors.

ardee D.My name it means nothing, my age it means less. My deeds of activism are mine to enjoy and share as I feel necesary, not as some clown in a small forum's administration thinks I must..This place gets worse each and every visit.
Member banned on June 3, 2008 for repeated abuse of editors.

WE ARE ALL GUILTY

We citizens of this nation who listen to the smarmy and untruthful rantings of George Walker Bush regarding torture and refuse to speak against him, we who listen to our elected officials debate the merits of such actions and do nothing, we who would vote again for any seated member of Congress who has refused to take a firm stand against illegal invasions, torture and the cycle of death, not only of human beings but of principles and moral values, we are guilty as hell.

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2388 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 11:04:28 AM
 


Concerned citizen and recently retired activist with an MA in Public Policy from an Ivy League school. Born-again Christian believer who is also a progressive and believs in the separation of church and state.
memaryConcerned citizen and recently retired activist with an MA in Public Policy from an Ivy League school. Born-again Christian believer who is also a progressive and believs in the separation of church and state.

Something to Remember

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out.

-Martin Niemöller

by memary (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 70 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 2:45:44 PM
 

 

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