The left fought mostly to improve the real world situation of workers, minorities, women, children and families. Not just with money but through the promotion of non-work time, cultural activities, social organization and participation in the decisions that affected them. The secular left seeks a world where cooperation and direct democracy are considered superior to economic gain, political power or religious special privilege. It is class, economic and social justice, not spiritual beliefs that more of us on the left have in common and must be the basis for cooperation. Morality, that is social norms, are not nor have they ever been the exclusive property of religion.
Lerner, further argues that the left should accept what they call a “New Bottom Line” a call for the implementation a set of values and ethics he seems to think the left doesn’t have and that we must acknowledge the “…recognition that the spiritual dimension of reality has to be brought into the center of progressive politics.” He goes on to state “that a leftist secularist ought to approach other belief systems with a greater spirit of humility, recognizing that secularism is one possible answer among many to the question of how to understand the universe and how to live one’s life. Secularism is not “the rational approach” but “a rational approach” among other rational approaches.” What he is really asking is that we go back to pre-enlightenment thinking about whose spiritual values are best, rather than a belief that reason can carry us forward without the attachment of superstition or that values are only possible through religion-spirituality.
My question is where is the humility of the religions? Are they ready to acknowledge their vast failures throughout history to support the advancement of civilization against the forces of ignorance and greed? Are “progressive” churches ready to acknowledge openly what many pastors and priests will admit privately about the superstitions in their belief structures? Are “progressive” churches willing to have open and frank discussions about how irrational rituals, superstitious beliefs and dogma are damaging to the solution of modern problems and be ready to change them?
Lerner misunderstands the position of myself and many other secularists, which is, quite frankly I don’t care what superstitions you believe in, just don’t try to drag them into the public sphere under the guise of “values”. Religion has no exclusive claim to the evolution of values only to the superstition of the day.
I welcome spiritual and religious people into the left. But please do not come here and try and offer us moral authority, you do not own it or even have it most of the time. If you want to join us in the search for economic and social justice, peace, real democracy, saving the human race and biodiversity from environmental destruction please feel free to do so. If you do share these values, come on in, we welcome you. Just remember you are joining us not the other way around. You are free to keep your beliefs, just don’t show up late for the party and try and tell everyone you’re putting it on.
‘What I will not do, and what I urge my friends in liberal and progressive movements not to do, is attribute evil motives to those on the Religious Right or to view them as cynical manipulators solely interested in power and self-aggrandizement. The Religious Right certainly has its share of power mongers and hypocrites. But the vast majority of those involved are people who are driven by principles and who want what is best for the world. We can strongly disagree with those principles, as I do, and we can argue, as I will, that they lead in a very dangerous direction, one that would actually increase the pain and suffering of humanity. But I do not doubt the sincerity or basic goodness of most of those who are involved.’
Rabbie Lerner ( from the excerpt above)
Nice folks are those Religious Right, huh? Their principles are bad but they are good. What a logic! God has both hands and if one hand wants to do masturbation or some other bad things the left hand should not prick it with a needle but rather caress back to the vibrator. There the both hands can do it with mutual respect.
I remember explaining to my child the book ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’. They all read it here. But what is it really about? It is about Death. Tom Robinson died. Mr. Jewell died.
Boo Radley killed a man and that is also Death. Jem would think that he was a murderer and that is Death of the spirit. Death possessed the small Alabama town and the ‘good people’ did not even pray for those dead. Life goes on. Or maybe Death goes on?
We are haunted by Death. Since the Y2001 there were at least 6000 our people killed ( those 9/11 included), 18000 or so wounded severely and will never fully recover. We have killed at least 100000 or more foreign civilians and the killing goes on.
It goes on every day. Seven people who died in ‘cartoon riots’ are the last to die.
People who drew those cartoons were ‘good people’. They did not mean anything.
They did not mean anything and people died. People DIED!
We have to feel the basic goodness of those Religious Right. Rabbie Lerner tells us.
Maybe we should ask them why is that in their goodness they are OK with so much Death? Maybe they should explain to us why is that they call themselves pro-life while they supported and continue to support a vampire and his institutions? Maybe we should ask them what Life is worth saving and what Life is not? Maybe before we decide that they are good we should ask them to prove that ‘goodness’ to us?
You know, folks, it is impossible to gain understanding with someone if you are considered guilty of something beforehand and that person is ‘good by definition’. It is a hopeless endeavor. You can kill yourself trying.
I have a big problem with Rabbie Lerner and people like him. He surely means good. But his desire to do good surrenders you to the enemy. And if he thinks that if they win they would empathize with him and his inner goodness, he is gravely mistaken. If only those good folks get their hands on him, they would get rid of him in a blink of an eye.
Death is their partner and they are not the Right Hand of God anymore. God had gone away. They scared Him. They are the right hand of Satan.
There is as much basic goodness in the Religious Right as in the horse’s ass. But neither are the people who call themselves Progressives ‘good’ either. The difference is very slim. In this country we do not fight for goodness or badness. We are fighting for survival, for the lives of our kids, all kids, even the ones who belong to all those weird Robertsons and Fallwells. We are really PRO-LIFE! They are really PRO-DEATH.
The country is sick and the first thing to do is to show it its face in the mirror. An ugly face, a bloody face, a no- good bastard face. That is the tough love our folks among Religious Right prefer. It is time to take a bitter medicine.
No, I do not think we should follow the Rabbie Lerner’s advice. We better make sure that those folks understand we mean business and that we will fight. Americans respect the fighting spirit. And in the fight you do not care if your adversary gets some bloody nose or feels bad. Their self- esteem is not our problem. Ours is.
by
Mark Sashine (46 articles, 19 quicklinks, 234 diaries, 3348 comments)
on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 at 1:21:22 PM
Has left turned into a bunch of self-righteous baboons
Since when does being left mean being secular? Has the left, become so narrow minded that it can’t accept anyone with a different belief? Isn’t rejection of people with religious beliefs analogous to rejection of religious liberty? What are they afraid of? Why are they being so exclusive? How is this “us versus them” attitude benefiting them?
I happen to be a secular progressive. However, I am appreciative and respectful of the religious diversity of my friends (although I don’t agree or understand them), some of whom are also progressive. I think that excluding their perspective, simply because they believe in something that I don’t, would be a very big loss. Also, I know that I feel insulted anytime someone rejects me because of my belief system. Why would I do that to others?
It’s important to realize that tolerating people with different religious beliefs is not the same as agreeing with them. Their values come from what they call religion, mine come from what I call reason and compassion. A good deal of the time, we agree on what is ethical. On things we disagree, it’s usually not religion based. It’s important to keep in mind that these are not the religious right.
Just remember it is the challenge of diversity that will make us strong. Sitting around and agreeing with those who believe exactly as we do is a downhill slop towards irrelevance.
John Kelly sounds just like Rush Limbaugh: arrogant, divisive, and obnoxious. He doesn’t represent the secularists.
by
Armineh Noravian (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments)
on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 at 3:59:17 PM
Actually there is nothing arrogant at all in John Kelly's article. On the contrary if you read the quote from Rabbie Lerner's book I quoted in my comment, you will see that he directly specifies Religioud Right as some kind of the group of virgins who are pure as snow down below. And we all know that is not true. Now, I do not think there is such thing as secularists either. Too many definitions. What is true is true: Mr. Lerner undermines the movement instead of helping it. And he knows very well what he is doing. He knows that truly religious people are very rare in this country while pseudoreligious are in abundance. He works for them. Now, there is only one way for the people to work together- that is to be equal and have the same goal. The latter one takes place more frequently than the former one. Rabbie Lerner for sure thinks that non- religious people lack morality even compared to Religious Right. Crap. No one owes anyone anything. We are all the same. And if ' religious' are on the wrong side - to Hell with them. And whoever is on our side- let him believe in anything, even the Devil himself.
That is the real point: we are fighting for survival. And after the victory everyone will be able to chooose his path in the Land Of The Free. That is when we are free.
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Mark Sashine (46 articles, 19 quicklinks, 234 diaries, 3348 comments)
on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 at 7:54:39 PM
response to armineh
Armineh, please read Lerners article and mine again, Lerner discounts scientific fact as no more real than religious belief, suggests that values are dependent on religion, ignores the history of religions (non fundamentalists ones too) collusion with power, suggest the left needs the spiritual leadership of him and other "spiritual progressives". I welcome them to the movement as I said in my article, I just dont think we should adopt the spirituality in order to have credibility which is what he is suggesting. That leaves us with a choice of which theocracy we want to govern. And by the way rush isnt anywhere near as rational as I am.
by (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments)
on Friday, April 21, 2006 at 10:49:53 PM
