What has snapped in the delusional mind that finds the atrocity of Hell acceptable? How could anyone ever enjoy paradise fully aware that members of their family and friends are being agonized with "weeping and gnashing of teeth." It doesn't matter if they are murderers, rapists or simply liars. All who don't accept God's "love" get the same sentence. Still, otherwise loving theists gleefully pray, "Come quickly, Lord Jesus."
I for one, denounce, deny, and condemn this evil in ALL its guises. It is time to hold ALL irrational bigots accountable for their beliefs and the statements of their ministers. In America, you have the right to be a bigot and a racist. You have a right to religious freedom. However, you are not entitled to respect. If you proclaim your beliefs in the public square (as is your right), you are not protected from ridicule and disdain. We are ALL accountable for our words and those of our leaders. In the words of Rush Limbaugh, "Words mean things!"
I am a former associate minister of a 12,000 member mega-church in Atlanta Georgia. Over the years, I had pushed God into this little, out of space out of time, deistic box. The God Delusion helped me realize my atheism and encouraged me to come out of the "religious closet"
Your bio says you came out of your "religious closet."
It's long past time for religion in politics to go back into the closet, or least the privacy of the home and individual churches where it belongs.
I want to see an absolute separation of church and state.
I also want to see the IRS go after all the ministers of all the churches that preach the gospel of politics from the pulpit, instead of being hypocritically selective and only going after the "liberal" preachers as they did here in L.A. a couple of years ago.
I know, sometimes the color of the sky in my wishful world is a weird color.
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Sandy Sand (130 articles, 0 quicklinks, 153 diaries, 1170 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 9:34:39 AM
Thanks for your comment. I agree 100% with comments. I also dream of a day when we can return to the "secular" origins of our great country. The concept of "Liberty" has been long been forgotten.
My "religious closet" speaks of letting friends and family know my true self. I and others hope to help bring acceptance to atheism. This is similar to what happened in the 1980s in the gay community.
Richard
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Brother Richard (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 10:02:15 AM
Didnt we bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Didnt we lie about WMDs? I dont think anything Wright said was so terrible. Black churches traditionally have that ecstatic quality. I think that is what scares O'Reilly. A man who has formaldahyde in his veins is afraid of emotion. Kennedy said it best. Religion should stay the hell OUT of politics.
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Guajolotl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 132 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 10:33:22 AM
While arguments can be made for your statements, my complaint is that the good Rev. Wright claimed to know the mind of God and was calling upon His wrath. This I feel is dangerous, if not evil.
The purpose for the article was to bring attention to the double standards.
I would also bring up that Rev. Wright said AIDS was manufactured by the US to destroy black people. This is idiotic and bigoted.
Richard
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Brother Richard (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 11:52:21 AM
To me it's interesting, Rev. Wright said some awful, terrible things, but there also is some truth to them. Maybe we are all so up in arms because we don't talk about difficult topics and come together to find meaningful and lasting solutions.
He said, "Barrack knows what it means to be a black man", I should hope so. As a white man, I don't. There is a white preference in our society. I have gone into a store with a black friend and was taken care of first. Not once, but several times. The only distinct difference was our skin color. That's in a retail store. White preference is ingrained in our society, our educational systems and our employment opportunities. Racism is alive and well, and while it has gotten better, we have a long way to go to have an equal society.
Rev. Wright also said, "Government gives the drugs, builds bigger prisons". Those are true statements. The policies of the government create the supposed "drug wars" the war on drugs and the effect of those policies have been less rehabilitation and education and more condemning of addicts, ruining of futures and imprisoning of people. In the US we have more per capita non violent prisoners than any other nation. We are the "incarceration nation" why? Because it is big business and someone is making a lot of money.
We bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, we dropped Napalm on Vietnam, we shocked and awed the world and our own citizens, the message was clear, stay out of our way, or you will get yours. Less people died on September 11th in New York then die on the highways of our nation in a single weekend. I know it was tragic, but it also seems so orchestrated and contrived. Too many unanswered questions surround it. We are the largest "state sponsored" terrorists on the planet. We are currently in a state of perpetual war because the defined enemy is "terror". How can you have a war, on "terror". Today it is in Iraq, tomorrow, Iran, and than where? We must end the war on "terror" and demand war authority be more clearly defined or we will perish.
No Weapons of Mass destruction were found.
The underlying message of this reverend to me seems like it is on target. The method of delivery was a bit harsh, for whites. But there is underlying truth to it.
I see Barrack, as very different person to the Reverend. His book, the Audacity of Hope, speaks to his ideals. His guiding framework.
As you pointed out, the far right uses Reverends to communicate their messages of hate unimpeded. They don't attend those churches so they do not have to "denounce or reject" their statements. They get television time and the psyops message is clear. "Stay in your place", "feminists" are bad. "Homosexuals" are ruining the world. Please.
It's the spin on the message of Reverend Wright - not the underlying truth. The Main Steam media is hyping up the hate, not discussing the core message.
I think many progressives agree with the underlying truth in the messages, but completely disagree with the way in which it was delivered.
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August Adams (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 385 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 11:59:31 AM
You bring up some great points. I agree with most of what you said. Living in the South, it is obvious that racism is alive and well. I have experienced similar situations with black friends (and family members) of mine. I have even experienced discrimination against me for being white--on a much smaller scale.
I do however, believe there is a several "race pimps" profiting off of the plight of many in the black community. These people (many of whom have Rev. in front of their name) need to be discredited and exposed. As long as they are exploiting people, we won't be able to accomplish progress.
Richard
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Brother Richard (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 12:50:21 PM
I think that both you and Brother Richard have it right. The sad part is that while major media lambasts Obama's preacher as the devil incarnate, the real news like the Winter Soldier Conference, is being ignored. Apparently the mainstream media would rather sensationalize about a radical preacher then report on the experiences out of the mouths of our own soldiers about the atrocities committed by US troops all in the name of freedom and the war on terror. http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/14/hundreds_of_veterans_of_iraq_and
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Michael Shaw (7 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 304 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 1:55:10 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. Americans are constantly distracted from the real issues that impact their lives. We are deceived into thinking that we are accomplishing great things by debating gay rights, and stem cells. We are taught to trust God to supply our needs and to keep us healthy. All the while getting screwed by HMOs (if we are lucky to have health care at all).
Richard
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Brother Richard (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 2:09:35 PM
To delve further into the history and evolution of the Hannity/Limbaugh phenomenon, as the biggest talk radio broadcasters in the US by far, the public and private sectors now face a large question: whether or not to accept legalized propaganda as standard in public discourse.
Read the back story on Rush/Sean and the erosion of journalistic balance on commercial airwaves. Especially for parents, weigh in here:
I also get quite disgusted listening to the "talking heads." Although, I don't think you should throw Neal Boortz into the same heap. Not only is he a fellow Atlantan, he is a libertarian.
Also, I do not think we should silence those with whom we disagree. They have a right to be heard and do their shows as private businesses. To make a difference we need to promote "progressive" talk shows and support truly "fair and balanced" media outlets.
Richard
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Brother Richard (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 2:19:18 PM
Brother, my article was careful not to say Hannity/Limbaugh should be silenced, rather their lack of balance should be discussed because they are misrepresenting America's many viewpoints by omission. I'd like to hear more from them, not less....
"They have a right to be heard and do their shows as private businesses." -- This becomes a sticky subject in regard to political speech because several conflicts-of-interest have resulted pitting the public good against pursuit of profits. For example, can the question of media consolidation be fairly debated on talk shows that benefit from the same deregulation?
I suggest to you they sure haven't, and so it goes with big oil who is doing well off the war, big pharma/health, etc. who would resist progressive reforms and any business that has a financial stake that could be affected by political discussion.
I also explained why "progressive" talk shows haven't (and cannot) compete commercially - because for-profit radio is driven by advertisers who are looking for monetary returns. This model doesn't jive with much progressive commentary - for example, corporations looking to sell gas guzzling SUVs.
Sponsors also won't sign on for "rabble rousing" sociopolitical upheaval, like challenging the certification of the Ohio vote in 2004 for example. Listener-supported radio seems to do fine, however, showing how much advertising can affect show content today.
I wonder if we really should have progressive programming trying to compete, broadcasting to their own base in criticism of the right. It seems to me this would perpetuate or even escalate the current polarization of our country.
But if we had programming that presented both sides in balance, hosts would have to offer only their best logical arguments and answer tough questions. Then listeners would be able to decide for themselves which side to come down on.
Basically, I'd advocate whatever format we think would be best to inform our own children. For example, the whole truth, in balance and civility, with strict journalistic ethics applied. How about you?
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Gustav Wynn (47 articles, 32 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 222 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 6:46:17 PM
Always interesting to see who squeals when the pig is stuck
The reverend's comment, "God damn America," in its context is an arguable point. I suspect that Barack and the Rev had a good many intelectual conversations about America, its racist past, its ignorant present and its speculative future that would not bear the light of public disclosure.
That's what enlightened people do. That's where a framework and reference for positions of integrity comes from. Conversation. Incisive, problematic, argumentative conversations that recognize differing positions and allow for other than knee-jerk reaction.
Personally, I would value a president who exposed himself (or herself) to such widely differing points of view. Fortunately, I rather think all three candidates are in that rank.
Preachers, perhaps particularly black preachers, are in the unique position of holding one-way 'conversations' with their congregation. Putting aside the religious aspect of the setting, there is enormous reason for blacks and native Americans to call down the wrath of their lord on the nation. Reverend Wright has every right to call it as he sees it and who are we--white, European Americans--to call him wrong?
Barack must distance himself from that--not because it is incorrect or historically inaccurate, but because white, European America will not stand it. We give lipservice to separation of church and state, but would never elect an atheist.
Oops, I have to amend that. We once had one, his name was Thomas Jefferson.
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Jim Freeman (108 articles, 40 quicklinks, 160 diaries, 327 comments)
on Sunday, March 16, 2008 at 6:07:40 PM
Talk about a “Manchurian candidate”. Obama has professed that a black racist preacher has been his mentor for over 20 years. That more than 20 years of racist hate preaching has had no effect on Obama cannot be ignored when selecting a president. That he stayed and has publicly stated that this was his mentor has much to say about his character.
I see Obama as a closet “Black Clans Man” and should be shunned just as “While KKK Clans Men” are and should be shunned.
Who really knows what Obama is really thinking? The election should not be about Black and White, Male or Female, However, on this subject I do make this a “Black and White” issue. Ignoring this type of personal association and previous profession of mentoring because it is a “Black and White” issue is wrong.
Obama made this a Black and White issue when he professed a Black radical racist was his lifelong mentor.
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Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 497 comments)
on Monday, March 17, 2008 at 4:09:11 AM
Obama also said Wright had a long and distinguished career of helping people - so the question is whether the montage we saw represents the overall tenor of the pastor or whether the clips we saw were exceptions.
We know the editor was looking to discredit him, and omitted anything positive, but when Obama spoke about him, making the mentor comment, he added much more perspective.
I'm not a fool, I won't make my judgment based on what little has been revealed so far. Also, I agree with many of Wright's sentiments, though not the insulting catch-phrasings. For example, I believe US black bag operations overseas are the cause of the 9/11 attacks. Would I say God damns America? No, I'd say the government damned America.
I also understand why he think the establishment is racist, but don't quite agree. It's a mixed bag, but there are racists like Billy Graham, LBJ, Nixon, Barabara Bush and many more all throughout government going back to Lincoln and before.
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Gustav Wynn (47 articles, 32 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 222 comments)
on Monday, March 17, 2008 at 10:20:57 AM
Indeed there is a double standard. I think the right is so threatened by Barack Obama, they will use anything they can to discredit him. Mr. Hannity and Mr. Limbaugh are both arrogant and haughty, judgemental hypocrites. And, by the way, their "God" states clearly that arrogance and haughtiness are sinful. And, "judge not, lest you be judged in the same manner.............."
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Linda Bailey (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 12 comments)
on Monday, March 17, 2008 at 7:31:39 AM
Limbaugh, Hannity and O'Reilly really know how to stir up a big "pot o sh$t" and get the people's attention..........they are good at their jobs.........they hit on the attention getters dead-on target.......and they keep the people coming back for more and more............"Racism" what a great topic to stir up some stink.........
Mr. Richard, I have to disagree here with this "Double Standard" statement........because knowing what these characters are up too an who they are working for, it's nothing more than a "sales pitch"..................
Actually, the posters here are getting way off the track again...........the main issues in this Presidential Election are "Stopping the War" and all that goes along with that........and "Restoring our Economy" and all that goes along with that...........Repairing the Constitution, Reclaiming Liberty and Regaining our Integrity will follow suit..........Obama is the only one of the three top contenders that offers a hint of that happening...........
All of the above mentioned issues are not racism issues.............You reckon L., H. and O. are aware that 40% of the American soldiers in Iraq are black?..............How can any one say that bringing the soldiers home from an illegal war is a racism issue? L., H. and O. are selling some stink so their employers can persuade the gullible listeners to elect the Obama opposition........either of the other two will do for them...........
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Ernest (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 130 comments)
on Monday, March 17, 2008 at 9:57:23 AM
