Kojeve: OK, but in the short-term, in terms of enacting some decent policies (albeit reformist) policies, or at least overturning some of the terrible ones that you mentioned from the past decade or so, isn’t it necessary to forge some sort of connection with actual lawmakers and policymakers? How else will it happen? Can you elaborate on the bridge between policy outcome and social movement?
Frank: That’s a good question. I think the best, more effective policies don’t actually come from policy makers, but from engaged citizens. If you look at policies that are positively affecting the environment, I think they come primarily from voters via ballot measures. Look at Montana where good people there nixed a pro-mining initiative four years ago. Or look at L.A. where they voted in favor of pouring large amounts of money into water revitalization programs through Proposition O a couple years back.
Legislatures are imprudent, not prescient. Environmentalists aren’t the ones who should be reaching out to elected officials, they ought to be the ones who reach out to us. That’s the difference I see at least, between how environmental groups give in and others remain effective. Not only in the interim, but in the long-term. We shouldn’t support a guy like Obama simply because he’s marginally better than McCain on the environment. We should oppose him on the grounds that we don’t agree with him. You only make a candidate better by placing demands on their candidacy. If you support their candidacies sans specific demands, then they win, and your cause loses.
This goes to the heart of what social movements ought to be about. They shouldn’t submerge their quest for justice simply to elect the lesser of two evil candidates. A movement grounded on principle doesn’t give in. An antiwar advocate doesn’t support a candidate that supports one imperial war and opposes another. That would be foolish.
Let’s compare anti-death penalty advocates to enviros for a minute. If you are against the death penalty ethically, you don’t say, “well it’s okay if only 2 in 5 death row inmates are executed. As long as a few aren’t.” No, instead you oppose all executions on the grounds that the state doesn’t have a right to murder people. The same goes for environmentalists. You don’t give up two acres of untouched forestland in order to save three acres, simply because that’s the option some corporation and their elected allies have given to you. You stick to your guns and do your best to save them all. The more people that stand on principle, the more victories for the environment we’re bound to see.
Kojeve: The United States seems to produce the bulk of the world’s environmental problems, while other countries shoulder the majority of the burden. Will environmental reform ultimately come NOT from within the United States but from other countries fed up with this inequality?
Frank: Right now China and Russia are consuming more and more oil everyday. They are both fast catching up to us in this regard. If the US is to cut back on its consumption, I’m sure they’ll pick up our slack. This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t bother to stop driving our Hummers and conserving energy. We should make an example that an industrialized nation can learn from its past mistakes. That’s why the Kyoto Protocol, toothless as it may be, would be a step forward, if only to symbolically say we are going to begin changing our destructive ways.
However, for the US to confront its oil addiction head on, we’re going to have to do a lot more than sign an international treaty or two. We are going to have to fundamentally alter the way we live and what and how we consume things. If we really would like to decrease the amount of oil we use, we have to address our reliance on imported goods. Think of all the oil used to manufacture and transport those products to the United States from Southeast Asia. Not only would it help the US economy if we began to produce the things we consume, including essentials like food — we’d ultimately be improving the quality of the environment.
If we stop purchasing Dole bananas grown in South America or even Apple computers built in China, we’ll hopefully force these gigantic corporations to move in the right direction, like back to the states. This will not only create jobs, it will make us less vulnerable to massive ecological disasters, like food shortages and the like.
This will involve some sacrifice of course. We’ll probably have to give up Wal-Mart and McDonald’s, or meat in general for that matter — but people will benefit, as will the ecology of the planet. Currently it is still quite profitable to pollute and suck minerals and oil out of the ground. It’s the capitalist way. Exxon-Mobile is the most profitable company in the history of the world for a reason. If we can become less reliant on these resources to survive, these industries will be forced to change, or be abolished altogether. Which would be fine by me, and I imagine there are a few polar bears that might agree. There is much we can do as consumers and activists within this country that affects the environment and economics of the entire world. But if this change comes first from countries fed up with the environmental burden they are carrying for us, we ought to support them. I don’t see the US as disconnected from the environmental responsibilities of other countries in any way.
Kojeve: What about countries that aren’t Asian “tiger” economies?
Frank: I wouldn’t call all the countries in Asia “tigers”. Many that produce the crap Americans consume aren’t all that strong economically. Simply because goods are made in South Korea or Peru doesn’t exactly change the equation of who wins and who loses. The US and other first world countries are still the primary exploiter of the world’s labor and natural capital. From the diamond mines of the African continent to the coffee fields of South America, profiteers care little about boundaries, unless of course those borders are telling them to turn around and go home.
Kojeve: Getting back to the presidential election, what do you think should radical environmental activists do if Obama is elected, amidst all the cheery romanticism that surrounds his campaign?
Frank: Luckily most radical environmental activists will continue to fight against corporate plunder and greed no matter who wins next November. It’s the do-good liberals and others that we have to be worried about. The ones that have been invigorated by the Bush years and think a Democratic messiah can save us. Only we can do that, by taking our lives in to our own hands. We need to reconnect to the food we consume and the water we drink. We need to oppose the privatization of our natural resources and preserve what little wilderness we have left. Romanticism can only sidetrack these efforts, so let’s not get caught up in the election hoopla just because The New York Times and Fox News have nothing better to inundate us with. Get out there and join the fight.
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