3. I did not defend Mitchell and Jessen. I like them and respect them. However, I told Alix Spiegel several times that they were big boys and could defend themselves. I did point out I was convinced that harsh tactics worked in interrogation as did a host of other, less harsh measures. I emphatically told her that this was my opinion and that it was a matter for empirical investigation. I stated that in pursuit of the truth, the key when using any interrogation technique, was to never lead the detainee during questioning.
4. Alix skillfully wove in Answer A on Question B. For example, I did say that I liked and was proud of the work we did at the SERE Schools. I did not say or remotely imply that I liked torturing people. In fact, I have never tortured anyone nor have I advised anyone to do it. And, by the way, I have never seen it done.
5. Alix implied that we engaged in tying a prisoner's arms behind his back and keeping him awake lying on the ground-or advocated these tactics. In fact, I told the story of CAPT Rod Knutson, whose account was well described in the Reader's Digest Book: POW, under the title: "A Tough Nut to Crack." The technique described was used by the enemy (North Viet Nam-Viet Cong) and is called the rope torture or "rope trick." Nothing of the like, to my knowledge, has ever been suggested for use by the American Armed Forces.
6. Alix made it sound like I advocated putting a bug in with a prisoner. I never suggested this and believe it is a hapless, stupid idea. However, I did point out that there were similarities between what was called torture in one context and therapy in another. My general thesis, over three hours of interviewing, was that empiricists, ethicists, behavioral researchers, academicians, and philosophers needed to debate and decide what constituted torture and the effect of context on the topography of behavior.
7. I was given a voice in this important debate. This occurred by my appointment to the PENS Taskforce in 2005. This appointment was officially requested by my Specialty Leader. It was sanctioned by the Navy. It is important that those of us who can contribute to the war of ideas and philosophies do so and that the right, reasonable, prudent, and ethical side win. For example, the pacifist movement before WWII and the appeasers in England, France and other countries had catastrophic consequences on the events that set the stage for the invasion of Europe by Germany, Nazism, and the Third Reich. My side of the debate includes standing against terror, protecting America, upholding the Constitution, and adhering to American values and rights as protected by the Constitution. I am resoundly opposed to pacifism as I believe it is a moralistic-feel good about oneself-philosophy which has no historical support for its efficacy and is contrary to everything I know about human (or animal) behavior.
8. I pointed out to Alix that I was waterboarded in 1990. I have been quoted as saying (Vanity Fair) that it was terrifying. It was. However, I was not harmed by the experience. I pointed this out to NPR as well as Vanity Fair and others. This point is never reported by the press. I told her that there is no life free of pain or adversity. And, the Waterboard made me stronger, more able to face the various problems of my life. My general thesis was, if something does not harm you, can you call it torture? This has been my consistent question from the PENS Taskforce until now. By this definition, I have now been tortured by NPR, and by those who have chosen to perpetuate their lies-far more so than by my experience on the Waterboard. I believe that torture must include the element of harm. Clearly, as psychologists, we are ethically bound to do no harm.
9. I also informed Alix that my colleagues at APA have passed a resolution that has the breathtaking arrogance of suggesting how my military colleagues should and should not practice in settings that they have decided are or have been abusive to our Detainees. I am sure that there have been psychologist consultants to business and industry and that many of those businesses, banks or industry are now failing at great cost to Americans. Perhaps we should pass a resolution limiting their activities. Perhaps those consultants should be limited to treating only those who have lost money at those banks or businesses. The fact of the matter is that those who have committed heinous acts (criminals, terrorists) are deprived of some or all of their human rights (through incarceration, loss of rights to vote, death penalty, etc.). Even those accused of committing these acts, though presumed innocent, are deprived of their liberty for the benefit and safety of society. Human Rights and Ethics are different concerns-although in an ideal world, one becomes the other. In a world of terror, the peaceful, moral, productive citizen must be protected by those who would deprive his rights by force, terror and deceit. This is what I swore to do when I took my oath. Our enemies are both foreign and domestic.
10. This is the easiest possible criticism that someone can make: "You should have done more, or you should have done something different." The set of things we don't do is infinitely larger that the set we choose to do. Our first order of business is to seek and to promote understanding so that we will be wise in the few things we choose to do.
11. Finally, I told Alix that the reputation of America-mostly to other Americans-was a vital concern. It is our own self-opinion of what America stands for that is at issue. It was correctly reported that I have no particular fondness for our enemy-but I would and have behaved correctly and ethically in regard to him for our sake.
Yours truly, Bryce Lefever"
In this Letter Lefever apparently is saying that "harsh" techniques are sometimes effective, and that they are, in many cases, not harmful, and therefore cannot be considered to be "torture." Lefever similarly told the PENS task force that they shouldn't assume that SERE-based techniques would be harmful to US detainees because, he claimed, they were character-building for US troops who went through SERE:
"When I brought up the idea of harm, and what is harm, it fell on deaf ears. I pointed out that behavioral and psychological techniques used in training our high-risk-of-capture students in Survival Schools [SERE] are viewed as vital, necessary, good, and for the greater good. Psychologists are strong proponents of these techniques even though they inflict psychological and physical pain. Yet the very same behaviors are proscribed by the Department of Defense and viewed as harmful when applied to America’s prisoners."
This new letter helps clarify his claim to the PENS listserv. His argument is that, because these SERE-based techniques are not "harmful," they are not torture.
" I was waterboarded in 1990.... However, I was not harmed by the experience.... My general thesis was, if something does not harm you, can you call it torture? "
Therefore psychologists, ethically-bound as they are to "do no harm," can ethically adopt waterboarding or any other SERE-based techniques. Because of this reasoning, he can claim that he never used or witnessed "torture." Not when he was a SERE psychologist witnessing SERE techniques used on US service members , one presumes. And not when he trained interrogators in Afghanistan. Given his caveats, we are still left wondering what techniques he did use in Afghanistan. Lefever says he only used "rapport-building." However, we now know that the abuses in Guantanamo from 2003 on were often described as "rapport-building." Thus, we are left wondering which "non-harmful" techniques he taught US interrogators in Afghanistan.
Another very important element of this letter is that it confirms the extensive collaboration between the APA and the military in the creation of the PENS task force. Lefveer tells us:
(Note: You can view every article as one long page if you sign up as an Advocate Member, or higher).
4
2
2
